Collecting
2024.12.21Conversation participants:
Alexander Georgievich Liders, PhD in Psychology, Associate Professor of the Department of Developmental Psychology, Faculty of Psychology, Moscow State University named after M.V. Lomonosov. Editor-in-chief and co-publisher of the journals Psychologist in Kindergarten, Psychologist in School, Journal of Practical Psychologist and a number of others; executive editor of the journal "Methodology and History of Psychology". Collector.
Alisa Bogoyavlenskaya, artist, member of the Creative Union of Artists of Russia, Master of Fine Arts, lecturer at the Department of Semiotics and General Theory of Art, Faculty of Arts, Moscow State University. Collector and collector's researcher.
- Alexander Georgievich, I would like to ask you, as a psychologist who is also engaged in collecting, about your attitude to the phenomenon of collecting. Your position as a psychologist and, possibly, as a practice is interesting.
- It is difficult for me to separate the psychological position and the position of the practitioner: in any case, I am both. It's hard to adjust. Of course, as a psychologist, I know some elementary truths about collecting, which you can find in Lichko's book "Teenage Psychiatry". But I personally did not find anything more than this inside psychology. Therefore, I will use ordinary words, only occasionally include some psychological maxims.
It seems to me that the phenomenon of collecting is very curious, and immediately it is necessary to distinguish between two completely different parts. I am not ready to define collecting, but I understand that there are those who are primarily businessmen, and those who are minimal businessmen. Collecting is money, but nevertheless, these people do not collect for the sake of money. For what?
We have two extremes - the dimension is given. There are other dimensions as well. (Draws a line and sets the names of the poles) It seems to me if this is money, business, and this is a legal way of collecting, investments: banks buy paintings, patrons buy paintings, and so on. And here what? It seems to me that there is another, much more ... just as deep position, as deep archetype as business. This is a passion for some completeness, for completeness, for finding new things, for cataloging, for ordering, and so on. What is the main thing here - completeness or orderliness, is not very clear to me. But, nevertheless, completeness, completeness, orderliness - this compares the collector with ...
There may be an analogue here: if business is a human product, then this pole is much more natural. This is the pole where collecting the products of human activity is akin to collecting natural phenomena. Seeds, herbarium, animal species, skins - not for sale, but as a natural scientist.
- So you are talking about research?
- You know, this research is in a special sense of the word. Yes, this is a study of humanity, or just observation, description, collection - some stage of research.
Are there any other dimensions of the collecting phenomenon for me? Maybe there is. There is also one that prompts ... (draws a vertical line) it is immediately striking that collecting is a kind of ersatz, a substitute for some other activity. Lichko writes that these are behavioral defenses - there are many of them, he means childhood and adolescence. I will speak in general terms, in a broader context.
The fact is that many professionals who, for some reason, parted ways or are not sufficiently deep for various reasons in their professional activities, are looking for a symbolic continuation of their activities. In the area of collecting that I do - pocket calendars - those who have dealt with the sea collect the sea. Those who dealt with aviation, but, for example, became not a pilot, but a technician, assemble aviation. Those who live by dogs, but still need some area, field, space around, he collects dogs.
- And a person who left his hometown and collects all the information about it, can this also apply?
- Yes, of course, and I know a woman who worked here on the railways, moved to Canada, and collects everything about railways, first of all, Russian, and now about Canadian.
So, I would ask a dimension: from the other side, it is compensation or some kind of addition, and I cannot define the other pole unambiguously. If there is compensation, I can only guess, hint that this is not compensation, but actually collecting per ce, in itself. Not a replacement, not a business, not a research, but in itself that it is - I don't know ... You see, I even marked this pole closer to the middle.
What else can I say about the phenomenon of collecting? It looks like something developed, a social phenomenon, a sphere. At one time I was fond of the philosophy of science - in science there is a concept of spheres of activity, they mutually support each other in a special way. The collection phenomenon is undoubtedly a division of labor. Where there are roles, there is a hierarchy, rules, and so on. There are old-timers and newbies. This sphere provides some other sphere. Which one? This sphere is one of the sub-spheres of leisure. The first thing that it provides is cultural development. In the army at KVN (at KVN!) I was asked by another team where Guadeloupe was. I only answered because I was collecting stamps. If I collected stamps, I knew where this island was.
This means that this is a sphere within culture, and then there are all the maxims that can be said about cultural activity. Collecting as a sphere is a late education. In each private area of collecting, the completeness of the composition, roles, etc. matures. In each new direction of collecting, they are late. Here's an example for you: pocket calendars first passed a natural stage - enterprises produced them for themselves. Then, in the 1960s, they were released for sale: the state made money, the state was the only publisher. Then private firms appeared. And when the development of society allowed all this to diversify, at some stage collectors began to produce calendars for themselves and for others. You will be surprised, but they release calendars in a single copy - not for an exhibition, not for sale - just for themselves. This goes on top of classification. We repeat the same thing that was in stamps, in metal, because the number of coins is limited, and collectors' societies began to print ersatz coins. Philatelists began to print ersatz stamps - this is the stage when a collectible is created by collectors for themselves. Let me remind you that great artists - for example Picasso - there was a moment when they painted everything in one copy, and then there came a moment when they made 17 copies of the same thing - for collectors.
In addition, the phenomenon of an intermediary appears - one who does not collect, but does business. The sphere is continually becoming more complex in terms of hierarchy.
- In this case, the laws of the functioning of the spheres are in force - that is, it can be the sphere of collecting, or the sphere of dog owners, fans ...
- They can overlap, for example, a fan can have a collection of autographs.
- That is, in this case, we see a transition from the maximum individuality of the collector to his inclusion in the group of the same collectors, with the same interests?
- Your question no longer concerns a phenomenon, but an explanation - what essential things are behind this phenomenon. The essence in this case is communication, and the collectible is only an intermediary. Because it is more important to come, talk, sit, watch, say "Oh!", Send a like, etc. Having is important, but communication is equally important. It is important to have pen-collector friends.
There are two extremes - some write "exchange without correspondence", others - "exchange only in the case of meaningful letters. Tell us about yourself ... ”Most collectors satisfy their need for communication. Supplement, development, area are good, but they need communication, where there is a hierarchy, where you can change your place, become an expert over time, etc.
- Then it turns out that collecting in this case is just an excuse for communication. In fact, it can be any activity. You can ride motorcycles, and this will also be communication in your circle - with roles, with hierarchy, you can get carried away with French literature, and this will also be communication.
- It is very difficult to catch the line here. Riding motorcycles - let's get something else - riding steamers. There is such an association of collectors that has “straddled the taste” for steamers and rides on steamers. How does this differ from bikers? But within the trip they change, talk, drink tea (and not only tea). Communication lives on any civilized kind of organization. Selling flowers, growing flowers. Collecting flowers, at the herbarium. Another thing is that there is a difference in material capabilities - who can afford a motorcycle? There is, undoubtedly, for all the generality, the dimension of democracy. What is Democracy? Availability, plurality and price. There are those who collect table medals. But they are only in antique stores, there are not so many of them as coins and banknotes.
In this sense, calendars are the most democratic, and this has led to the fact that calendars have exploded and reached some optimum. All the others have existed for a long time and have been thawing - philately, numismatics. The calendar is still ahead. I was in Kamchatka - and there are collectors of calendars there too.
Availability, plurality, price facilitates communication. But there are also some cultural prerequisites for collecting. For me, the countries of Europe stand out quite clearly, where there are many calendars and many collectors. And there are countries where there are few calendars and few collectors. There are countries where collecting does not have reliable feedback and does not stimulate the calendar industry. There is something different in the culture. For example, in the USA, according to third parties, there is a small group that collects wall calendars - they have space to display them. And their small calendars are not so beautiful, and only corporate. The Chinese are trying but unable to introduce pocket calendars in America.
The hypothesis is that the phenomenon of collecting is influenced by some national cultural environment. In Italy, for example, there are inferior calendars, very expensive. Collectors are not visible in the Internet space. And countries such as Spain, Portugal - many collectors, many calendars, both natural and artificial.
- What makes a person come to this kind of leisure, if it is leisure for him? Why does one person choose travel, and another - collecting? So there is something in the personality structure?
- Yes, rather even in the structure of mentality. There are those who visualize well, who need new visual images, new territories. There are those who like to walk or pedal their bike. And there are those who like calmness, orderliness, some detachment, closeness, intimacy of the collection.
In the structure of the personality ... It seems to me that of course there is, and this is what is now being actively discussed in psychology. This is the so-called uncertainty tolerance. Undoubtedly, collecting sets some requirements for it. After all, this area is notoriously difficult, and I may be afraid of this area. But I can not be afraid, because something in me is responding. I'm complex myself, I interact with another complexity. Moreover, this uncertainty is dual: it is the uncertainty of the subject and the border, as well as the uncertainty created by competition.
There are individuals who withstand this tolerance, set boundaries or can fluctuate boundaries. Example: one girl was collecting calendars with dogs. She lives with dogs, has a hotel for dogs. But as the collection grew, she realized that she could not organize it in her head and in the computer. She gave up part of the collection, sold the so-called series, and suddenly recently again divides the collection - she leaves only the delicacy - calendars of nurseries, and sells everything else - a huge part. That is, she did not cope with uncertainty - when the collection grew, she was forced to limit it, because she “has no time,” and I think that there is no tolerance for uncertainty.
- I would like to ask a philosophical question - about the attitude of collectors to space and time. Indeed, in the collection there is a "harmony of contrasts" - individuality and at the same time the seriality of the object. The collection allows a metaphorical look into the past and replay the history of each item, as well as build a forecast. Perhaps, the collector's personality is also included in space-time relations, reminiscent of a game by certain rules. Attitude to the future, past and present, the possibility of their variation. Could a specific attitude towards life and death be one of the foundations of collecting?
- You have asked a difficult question. Relationship to space and time. A type of person from the point of view of mastering space and time, a collector is like a person who always lives in some refined space and time.
(Long pause in reflection)
Well, I can put forward such a hypothesis is completely paradoxical. I think we will now expand, what you said, we will clarify. But look: natural-historical, natural-testing collecting. Linnaeus, who described animals, butterflies, spiders, plants, and so on, was undoubtedly talking to the future. Undoubtedly, he spoke for the future by what he sketched, described, recorded. He sagaciously admitted that it might perish. Undoubtedly, this desire to preserve - at the level of the very initial collecting - as the knowledge of nature, not even study, but simply knowledge, the desire for ordering parts.
(draws a line and highlights the poles on it)
The extreme here is the phenomenon that a famous person presents to me. He went to the Cape Verde Islands and put together a collection there, fate decreed - in another place. This is a modern man. Another compiled a list of all great people, events and things using the Internet. He turned to us with a proposal - let's make an ENDLESS series of pocket calendars. All these events are on this list. Available in dictionaries, encyclopedias. And he wants to translate it into such a visual form of calendars. Moreover, people and things are understandable, but how to convey events? From the very beginning, he is interested in the completeness and embodiment of this completeness in something. Pocket calendars really allow you to do this for many years to come. In my collection there are about so many pocket calendars (writes the number 500,000), I think that there are twice, three times more of them, because we do not know India and China well, in Western countries we scoop out half, in our country - 90%, but the figure ! And how many of these events, people and things! Moreover, these are ALL tractors that were produced in the world, all aircraft ... It is clear that this represents what has already been released in the calendars. But, nevertheless, the idea is there.
- That is, this is the maximum embodiment of an idea in the form of a collection?
- This is the maximum embodiment of the whole world (in filmed form) in the form of a collection.
On the other hand, time is always present in collecting. It's hard to find collectibles that have ended their existence that no longer exist. Maybe tarantasses? - And then they make new ones, in small quantities. You see, no collectible has given up on natural / artificial release. All time limits in collecting are artificial. I only collect Tips. There are Germans who collect the GDR. The rest they collect, but sluggishly, and this they want to collect completely. The time slice is fully set, because the GDR is no longer there.
- That is, while they collect, it lives, continues to exist? Doesn't die while being collected?
- No, I would say it differently. My feelings, my ideas, my image, my identity. You can see if the GDR is collected only by former residents of the GDR, but this is the same as dog owners, like pilots, about whom we spoke. This is some kind of identity maintenance.
- Or maybe it's like in Pushkin: “No, all of me will not die - my soul in the cherished lyre will survive my ashes and flee decay”?
- It is necessary to look at the differences in the spheres of culture: poetry, texts, media - and in the field of collecting. The difference is that Pushkin created and the collector collects. The poet will remain because he is the creator, and the collector is the mechanism of the collection's life. Collectors of the first editions, Pushkin's flourishes - they are the mechanism of eternity, not eternity itself.
“At the same time, what exactly will be collected depends on the personality of the collector. If we take Tretyakov, who collected paintings by Russian artists in a situation where no one needed the paintings - “even throw them into the Neva” - as a result, based on his personal preferences, the whole country knows from childhood the history of Russian art from Tretyakov's collection. That is, he can be regarded in some way as the creator, the one who made the selection.
- I agree that a collector can bring something that "falls out" from the sphere of collecting into wider layers of culture. And now he will present his subject there. Can I give you other examples, not from the past?
- In principle, this is almost any museum collection, which initially is based on a private or several private collections ...
- I think that ... Let's remember this feeling and step aside a little.
Now I will try to illustrate the idea on this dimension. (Draws a cross on a line) This cross can be interpreted to facilitate collecting, natural boundaries. For example, Russian painting ended, Soviet painting began, although there are also transitional moments. So, on the one hand, this border makes the task easier, on the other, it complicates. I would like to draw your attention to this.
This cross symbolizes some danger for me. The phenomenon lives on this area ... There are some internal dangers that can kill, like the mammoths died out, there are some analogs, some challenges.
Collecting can turn into another kind of activity and thus be emasculated. For example, now the concept of "virtual collection" has appeared. It burst in very quickly and violently. There were people who collected beer labels. Real labels. And now they have virtual collections, where there are not only their labels, but also the labels of those with whom they communicate. This is an analogue of a catalog, but catalogs were made (in the field of stamps) in such a way that they never printed the entire series, some stamps were simply given a description. And the computer allows you to describe everything.
A person no longer cares about the catalog, only about his virtual collection, uses it as he pleases, and this is a completely different type of activity, but maybe this is a return to the original collecting. Linnaeus brought animals, plants, gave them for study, but where are they now? Only his taxonomy remained. And it's the same here. Where is this calendar, it doesn't matter. It is in the computer. If it exists in one copy, I will not strive to get it, if in ten, I will find out who has it. But there is a certain danger of natural activity developing into "activity in a square" - into artificial activity, because the means provide such an opportunity in some types of collecting.
I think it will be interesting for you to know. You know that Anatoly Karpov collects stamps. He has been collecting for a long time, he has an agent who is an intermediary for him. I have a suspicion - it's a myth - that the General Secretary of the Bulgarian Communist Party collected calendars. This is a myth, I cannot confirm it. But as arguments for veracity: in Bulgaria all organizations were forced to publish calendars - even on bad paper, at least a photo ... This was incomparable with Hungary, with Moldova. It was clearly fueling someone's interest. But I know for sure - this is not a myth - that a person who was the head of the traffic police in Karelia, then the head of the traffic police in Moscow, and then - the head of the traffic police of Russia - collected calendars. He is the chief traffic cop - and all the traffic police in Russia issued pocket calendars - for him. This is a strange phenomenon when a significant person enters the hierarchical structure of a sphere, and he modifies this sphere, like some kind of bump. He retired and it was over. So collecting is an area where all social laws apply.
This is, perhaps, what I wanted to tell about virtual collections as an ersatz activity, as well as the role of the human factor. And I asked you to remember something in order to return to the subject of the conversation.
- It was the thought of contrast - the transition from purely individual collector's preferences to general meanings. On the basis of the personal collection, a public understanding of how this works is then built. And these are very strongly separated poles.
- You are probably continuing the remark that collecting is research. Although research is active, cognition is here as a stage of observation and fixation. I will agree. And this case, when he sets some patterns and goes beyond into broader cultural layers - I would really think about it. The primitive solution is obvious. The "innocent" way out is very simple - can collectors give feedback to those who are connected with objectivity. This is not an exit into history, into the transmission of cultural samples, but an exit into the modern sphere - into the culture of production, if you will.
- Do they select and set new rules?
- They are included in the production. Pocket calendars in Germany definitely have a postcode, address and telephone number. This is culture. Our publishers don't do that yet. Somewhere in the city of Kamsk, they publish a calendar and give a telephone, without even indicating that this is the city of Kamsk. This is so annoying! We collectors want to get together and put together a guide to publishers about what must be in this area. This is not just a lack of management, but some editorial culture. As for an example like Tretyakov, this is undoubtedly a museum theme. The museum is what keeps the collection. There is a person in Moscow who says to me without any hesitation: "Listen, I have already bought land for the future calendar museum." He does not yet have the money to build some kind of real estate there, but he bought the land for future use, he thinks, fired up with the idea of a calendar museum. He “scratches out” calendars of the USSR times from collectors. He wants to do it first in the albums - he prepares the album "Calendaristics during the Great Patriotic War", and then only the museum.
But the museum ... Many research things are done on the material of the collection or archive. The archive is a quasi-collection. These are traces, remnants of activity. This is what will remain in this pulpit when everyone is gone.
- The archive has a slightly different structure.
- Research can be carried out on the material of the collection and archive, and then it will be released to other, wider, cultural layers. Let's say researching the history of mods. And then a study of this fashion in modern clothing.
- Going back two paragraphs. Is a museum in some way the immortality of a thing that embodies an idea?
- Yes and no. A museum is a transformed form of personal collection, where we are empowered by the power of another. In countries where private property is developed, it will be a private museum - as, for example, near Zvenigorod the artist's house, his house became a museum. A museum is always money, sponsors, property. Museums, as you know, are private, municipal and state. And by hook or by crook, the private are trying to go to the municipal. Because in our country it is more difficult to destroy a state museum or collection. In other countries - private, private, private.
You have touched upon an interesting thing - the fate of the collection. As in other areas, we can talk about the life of the collection - about the origin, development, reaching a climax, thawing and death. Although there is a concept - from the collection of such and such. That is, some people fix their collection, and even if it is scattered, it will still be from his collection, because he collected, described, recorded, and then ... But it seems to me, to the question of time and space, that collections are dying ...
But a collection, when it is sprayed - after all, it is rarely possible to sell a collection entirely, only for a pittance - it contributes to the growth of the next generations on it, it gets to those who are ready for serious work with it ...
- To what extent does the collector identify himself as part of the collection, or as the “master” of the collection? That is, the question of the psychic connection between the collector and his collection.
The word identity helps to answer this question. This is a big part of my identity. I'm afraid of losing her. I care about her in particular. I get worried when someone treats her badly. Or when natural disasters disrupt ... one of my colleagues has water flooded part of the collection. It's like a knife in my heart. At the same time, some circumstances are a counterweight. For example, father's illness. And then I can walk with my shoes on the calendars. They crumbled, and my head is occupied with another. This identity of mine is dulled. But this identity, that you have to take care of your father, is completely different. And the word "master" - no, no.
- I said it exaggeratedly - precisely to exacerbate this issue.
- There are concepts that are described about any property. There is a manufacturer, there is an owner, there is one who represents - the owner, he is not the owner. And in the collection there are things that are fixed in the property. There is one who collects a collection, one who owns it, one who exhibits. They can in particular be glued together, but they can be separated. If we announce a competition, then the son and daughter can exhibit at the exhibit, although the item will be from the father's collection.
- Can the collection be considered overcoming death to some extent?
- I, regardless of you, was now thinking about the following. I know the definition of what life is - biological. But there is an indelible impression that the world lives, and we only support it. The category of life does not apply to us. The house exists in order to live for centuries, and the tenants are repairing, painting it ... If you admitted the idea that nature, houses, objects live, then we, people, provide their life. You see how paradoxical. Pocket calendars, with my help, secure eternity for themselves. I am going away from staying. They stay with my help.
- Do you associate yourself with them? Are you involved in this idea?
- I identify myself as a collector of pocket calendars, but this identity, it is the same as religious, gender, but to go deeper ...
- When we live for the sake of an idea, we forget about ourselves, and at some point we become a single whole with it. The moment of egoism is very difficult, which leaves in collecting. It is an individual, but not selfish.
- I did not hear you well - it seemed to me "when a person lives as children ..." - The idea of children - this also applies here ...
- Children are completely different feelings. They are not children. They are not children. The only thing I can say that associates me with your words is that there is an idea, concept, category behind this phenomenon. And yet there is an intermediary. I cannot say that I am a part of this or that this is a part of me. I can put it this way: collecting as a process, collection as a result is an integral part of my life, not me. If I own my life, then I control this part of my life. If someone else owns my life - they will go to jail - then who needs this collection. I will find some meaning in a new position for me - without a collection, but here, relatively speaking, they will throw it into the basement.
There is an intermediary between me and collecting in the form of the concept of life. Me, life and collecting as an activity (draws a three-element diagram).
- I have a hypothesis that the depth of collecting is associated with a special orientation of a person in relation to life and death.
- Perhaps in your research it is possible to test a broader hypothesis. The difference between the paintings of the world of those who are included in collecting, and people who do not collect anything. It is even possible to establish differences in the lives of collectors and those who are idiosyncratic to collecting.
- Thank you, Alexander Georgievich. I will summarize - in general, we have outlined the fundamentally important points of the approach to the phenomenon of collecting from the point of view of psychology. To be honest, I was impressed by your aphorism: “the collector is the mechanism of Eternity”, which refers more to philosophy than psychology. I hope that in the future we will be able to discuss collecting issues - psychological and philosophical.
